17:02:48 <woodyrollins> #startmeeting Culture
17:02:48 <eucabot> Meeting started Tue Apr 10 17:02:48 2012 UTC.  The chair is woodyrollins. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:02:48 <eucabot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:59 <woodyrollins> #meetingname Culture
17:02:59 <eucabot> The meeting name has been set to 'culture'
17:03:19 <woodyrollins> #chair obino,gholms,mchua,gdek
17:03:19 <eucabot> Current chairs: gdek gholms mchua obino woodyrollins
17:03:39 <woodyrollins> Hi everybody.  Roll call.  Show of hands please!
17:03:55 <obino> we lost the eucabot logs (yes the dog ate my homework): this is the mail that woodyrollins sent about today's agenda http://lists.eucalyptus.com/pipermail/community/2012-April/000538.html
17:03:59 <gholms> FYI: eucabot was in an accident over the weekend and lost some of its memory.
17:04:16 <woodyrollins> gholms:head injusry
17:04:26 <obino> gholms: that was somewhat of an understatement ... I think it was a straight lobotomy
17:04:39 * noirin shows hands
17:04:46 * kwurst o/
17:04:46 <gholms> No, when eucabot is in lobotomized mode it doesn't respond at all.
17:05:07 <obino> ah
17:05:14 <gholms> When I get a chance I will try to have eucabot read all of the logs from this channel to re-generate meeting minutes.
17:05:24 <gholms> It will take some script-writing, though.
17:05:28 <woodyrollins> Quiet day.  Was it something I said?
17:06:34 <woodyrollins> So, we decided last week that we would dive a little deeper into value definitions this week.
17:06:36 * mull o/
17:06:39 <obino> I think is becuase of the smell :)
17:06:51 <woodyrollins> Noirin was kind enough to do some heavy-lifting for us...
17:07:12 <obino> #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/12SWSXF5c5_KcEHFxFNlxzyvHgPFRvTV7ZxwEiYM1p9I/edit noirin's definitions
17:07:41 <woodyrollins> Noirin:  Thx for doing this.  Very impressive.
17:07:58 <gregdek> Hi, all. Sorry I'm late.
17:08:01 <noirin> No problem :-)
17:08:16 <obino> noirin: I really like your definitions!
17:08:25 <woodyrollins> gregdek:  Now stand in the corner
17:09:01 <gregdek> lol
17:09:26 <woodyrollins> Lets take a few minutes and review Noirin's work.
17:10:00 <gregdek> url doesn't work for me...?
17:10:03 <gregdek> blank document?
17:10:23 <obino> that's what happens when you arrive late at the meeting
17:10:36 <obino> let's try again https://docs.google.com/document/d/12SWSXF5c5_KcEHFxFNlxzyvHgPFRvTV7ZxwEiYM1p9I/edit
17:11:01 <gregdek> Better, thx.
17:11:06 * gregdek wonders what happened there...
17:11:37 <obino> mchua: has some comments
17:11:42 <obino> what do you guys think?
17:12:02 <gregdek> Agree with most of mchua's comments.
17:12:14 <gregdek> I think we should keep "inclusive" simple, though.
17:12:38 <gregdek> I also don't think we need to belabor the "in the open" definition.
17:12:45 <lwade> soz I'm late
17:13:02 <obino> hi lwade
17:13:03 <gregdek> But maybe could use a bit more for "in the open"... hm.
17:13:11 <obino> agree about the open
17:13:15 <gregdek> It's strong. I think I'm picking nits a bit.
17:13:16 <noirin> I think we could use a bit more for "in the open". I'm just not sure what :-)
17:13:19 <lwade> hey obino :)
17:13:26 <lwade> are we on the mantra?
17:13:34 <gholms> Values
17:13:36 <noirin> lwade: Nope, picking at the values
17:13:38 <lwade> ty gholms
17:13:39 <lwade> ty
17:13:42 <obino> #topic values discussion
17:13:43 * gregdek has to wander afk a bit to finish something, bbiab
17:13:44 <gholms> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12SWSXF5c5_KcEHFxFNlxzyvHgPFRvTV7ZxwEiYM1p9I/edit
17:13:46 <noirin> Also, how about "inclusive of all"?
17:13:56 <lwade> I think something about "in the open" is good
17:14:11 <noirin> I don't really want to get into a list of disciples/locations/races/text editors/programming languages
17:14:19 <lwade> it also targets fragmentation of other cloud solutions and their secret-sauciness.  Sorry, marketing alert *whooop whoop*
17:14:23 <obino> noirin: I agree
17:14:31 <obino> I like it short and sweet
17:14:49 <obino> lwade: lol
17:15:24 <obino> any more taker on the 'inclusive' comment?
17:16:22 <hspencer> inclusive is the only way to fly
17:16:24 <hspencer> :)
17:16:26 <hspencer> mornin all
17:16:37 <obino> morning hspencer
17:17:36 <woodyrollins> OK, lets walk through each definition, starting from the top, we will #agree and transfer to the wiki.
17:17:52 <woodyrollins> #topic Transparency
17:18:05 <woodyrollins> there was a comment about in the open.  thoughts?
17:18:30 <obino> this is not open development, or is it?
17:18:42 <woodyrollins> mchua suggests that perhaps we should further define "open"
17:19:06 * gregdek checks back in.
17:19:16 <obino> gregdek: good time, your thoughts on that part?
17:19:28 <gregdek> I think we may refine these definitions later.
17:19:30 <obino> this may get us into the open source developement discussion, or not?
17:19:37 <gregdek> And I think that this isn't yet the time to take a strong stand here.
17:19:38 <noirin> Perhaps one thing to check first is, what do we actually commit to?
17:19:49 <obino> I mean the style (bazaar cathedral etc ...)?
17:20:03 <gregdek> We are in the process of becoming *radically* more open in the next couple of months.
17:20:09 <gregdek> But we are not there yet.
17:20:39 <gregdek> So it seems to me that "in the open" is good for now, with the shared understanding that we may revisit in the coming months.
17:20:43 <gregdek> EOF
17:21:03 <lwade> .
17:21:08 <obino> ok, I'm good with your non-committal statement
17:21:21 <obino> man you sounds from marketing team
17:21:48 <noirin> Are we agreed?
17:21:59 <gholms> worksforme
17:22:00 <gregdek> LOL
17:23:07 <woodyrollins> Is it the consensus to post the definitions, as eloquently stated, to the wiki?
17:23:25 <woodyrollins> we can then circulate internally for more feedback
17:23:32 <obino> #agree Transparency: we believe in developing our products in the open. We strive for openness in our communication and decision-making.
17:24:00 <woodyrollins> #topic Excellence
17:24:01 <gregdek> woodyrollins: I like that idea.
17:24:21 <obino> I agree on mchua meaning of skillfull
17:24:26 <gregdek> Ditto.
17:24:28 <obino> I don't think we need to spell it out
17:24:33 <obino> though
17:25:07 <noirin> We believe in taking a long-term view of costs and benefits [favouring skillful engineering over convenient fixes]. We strive... etc
17:25:25 <noirin> I don't think it's too terribly wordy to spell out
17:25:39 <gregdek> I like spelling it out.
17:25:54 <noirin> I do too
17:26:26 <noirin> I think I like having both. Just replacing mine with mchua's feels like it's missing something
17:26:46 <obino> gholms mull any preferences? (since you are engineers :))
17:26:46 <noirin> But I also want to rework my part (or hope that someone else will come up with something that expresses it better :-))
17:27:15 <gholms> "Skillful engineering" doesn't mean anything to me.
17:27:34 <obino> crappy engineering is better?
17:27:38 <obino> lol
17:27:39 <gregdek> gholms: that explains a lot, LOL!
17:27:46 <gholms> That is equally vague. :/
17:28:09 <woodyrollins> Noirin:  I agree, however, "taking long-term view of costs and benefits leaves me flat
17:28:10 <noirin> We believe in taking a long-term view of costs and benefits, favouring thoughtful design over convenient fixes?
17:28:15 <gholms> "Doing things the right way" is slightly less vague, but I'm not entirely sure what you're shooting for.
17:28:16 * mull used to be in support, and believes in convenient fixes.  :-D
17:28:36 <gregdek> gholms: our commitment to QA is a good exemplar of our values, I think.
17:28:36 <obino> mull lol
17:29:20 <gregdek> We care about quality and stability for our users.  And I think everyone does, but I think we demonstrate that commitment more than others orgs I've been associated with.
17:29:55 <noirin> We believe in doing things right even when it's harder, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits.
17:29:58 <gholms> Does "quality" belong in that statement in the doc?
17:30:20 <obino> quality engineering?
17:30:22 <noirin> We believe in doing things right even when it's harder, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure the quality of our work.
17:30:44 <noirin> We believe in doing things right even when it's harder, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work.
17:30:51 * noirin needs a bag of #ideas
17:31:06 * gholms goes to the 7-Eleven to buy some more
17:31:15 <obino> we believe quality engineering is a long term sustainable solution?
17:31:24 <noirin> We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work.
17:31:52 <noirin> Personally, "quality engineering" doesn't clarify "excellence" to me
17:31:54 <gregdek> "Right way over easy way" is almost enough for me.
17:32:05 <shaon> We believe in doing things right even when it's harder, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work. > this one sounds good to me
17:32:34 <noirin> shaon: Are you still ok with it if we replace the first part with right way over easy way?
17:32:37 <obino> we believe in creating perfect software with no bug: if you find any, it's in your system
17:32:44 <noirin> obino++!
17:33:01 <shaon> yeah, that is fine too
17:33:09 <woodyrollins> The cost/benefit thing still has me scratching my round head.  "long-term view of the usability of our software"
17:33:41 <noirin> I specifically didn't want to mention software
17:33:59 <gregdek> Clever noirin.  Docs count too.  As do mission statements.  :)
17:34:00 <noirin> Because I want this to be about our code, our docs, our interactions with each other, *everything* that we as a community produce
17:34:16 <gregdek> A big +1 to noirin here.
17:34:17 <woodyrollins> good point
17:34:30 <obino> #idea We believe in doing things right even when it's harder, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work.
17:34:41 <shaon> +1 noirin
17:34:42 <obino> #idea We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work.
17:34:47 <shaon> great point
17:34:57 <obino> #idea We believe in doing things right even when it's harder, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits.
17:35:52 <noirin> I like "choosing the right way over the easy way" best. That has the ring of something that can become a slogan, that people can rally around.
17:36:23 * gholms nods
17:36:28 <woodyrollins> Am i the only one stumbling over "costs and benefits"?
17:36:28 <obino> We believe the right way over the easy way, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work.
17:36:52 <lwade> woodyrollins, I am too atm
17:36:56 <gholms> woodyrollins: Nope
17:37:00 <obino> We believe choosing the right way over the easy way, taking a long-term view of costs and benefits to ensure high-quality work.
17:37:14 <lwade> Can we not remove the costs and benefits and somehow illustrate how we focus on user requirements or something?
17:37:32 <noirin> We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way, taking a long-term view to ensure high-quality work.
17:37:41 <obino> We believe choosing the right way over the easy way, taking a long-term view for long lasting solutions.
17:38:45 <obino> We believe choosing the right way over the easy way, and to meet user's requirements and expectation over expediency
17:38:50 <obino> lwade: something more to that?
17:39:13 <lwade> yeah, I'm wondering whether we can't state directly that we "do stuff for our users" ?
17:39:17 <noirin> "User requirements/expectations" brings it back to focusing on the software product, I think
17:39:31 <shaon> lwade: lol
17:39:37 <obino> how about if we say community (noirin)?
17:39:45 <lwade> We blieve the right way over the easy way, keeping the focus on our users and community for the long term
17:39:47 <lwade> p.s. that's crap
17:39:49 <lwade> but you get my point
17:39:53 <noirin> (Although I see in the next sentence I was obviously getting tired :-))
17:40:26 <noirin> We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way, focussing on developing solutions that will last?
17:40:26 <woodyrollins> We believe in thinking long-term; choosing the right way over the easy way and to meet user requirements and expectations over expediency.
17:40:33 <gregdek> I think the easy way here is just to say "choosing the right way over the easy way."  I have no idea what the right way is.
17:40:36 <gregdek> :)
17:40:50 <obino> the man with no commitments!
17:40:56 <obino> LOL
17:41:27 <noirin> Let's go back to the value too. Does excellence actually mean "thinking long-term"?
17:41:35 <gregdek> Although going over many additions that don't seem to add much, I'm starting to believe it's also the right way.
17:42:18 <woodyrollins> Andrew:  Any thoughts?
17:42:21 <obino> We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way as the only way to achieve perfection (high karma)?
17:42:42 <noirin> We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way. We strive to build a culture that is dedicated to developing high-quality solutions that last.
17:42:52 <woodyrollins> sorry, cpt_yesterday?
17:43:05 <gregdek> "We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way, and rely on our users to help us find the right way."
17:43:31 <cpt_yesterday> Wow I feel like I'm back in class with this response...I wasn't paying attention...sorry
17:43:34 <obino> gregdek: that doesn't seem to fulfil the excellence valuw to me
17:43:47 <gregdek> To me, it's the very core of it. :)
17:44:06 <woodyrollins> take it outside
17:44:15 * noirin thinks it's dangerous to assume that users know the right way ;-)
17:44:19 <obino> we already have other values that are inclusive and collaborative
17:44:27 <obino> it seems a bit of a double if you will (gregdek)
17:44:40 <gregdek> noirin: that's why I didn't say "rely on our users to lead the way," lol.
17:44:48 <gregdek> But fair enough.
17:45:03 <gregdek> I'd rather talk about users than user requirements, though.
17:45:08 <noirin> Agreed
17:45:12 <woodyrollins> agrred
17:45:14 <noirin> #idea We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way. We strive to build a culture that is dedicated to developing high-quality solutions that last.
17:45:21 <gregdek> And if that's duplication, then leave the "user reqs" kind of language out, I'd say.
17:45:45 <woodyrollins> Noirin: Now we're talking
17:46:19 <obino> I like it
17:46:24 <obino> and no users in it LOL
17:46:51 <noirin> (If it's EN-only, we can remove the "that is", but if we're going to translate these, "that is" should probably stay in for clarity)
17:47:30 <obino> ok, we should keep it: our second taks will be to tranlsate it:)
17:47:36 <noirin> Ok :-)
17:47:51 <obino> gholms: what do you think?
17:47:56 <gregdek> +1 to noirin's latest from me.
17:48:04 <woodyrollins> anyone disagree with Noirin's latest pearl?
17:48:16 <woodyrollins> mull?
17:48:23 <gholms> That sounds better to me.
17:48:37 * mull brings this meeting back into his focus
17:48:48 <gholms> It also looks translateable. :)
17:49:06 <mull> sounds good to me
17:49:15 <obino> shaon: what do you think?
17:49:27 <woodyrollins> jeevan_ullas?
17:49:40 <shaon> I like it
17:49:43 <noirin> Ten minutes, and three more values :-)
17:50:05 <woodyrollins> Lets move on
17:50:23 <gregdek> (I think tht was worth the time though.)
17:50:30 <obino> this seems a #agree to me yell if it si not
17:50:33 <noirin> gregdek: +1
17:50:33 <obino> #agree We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way. We strive to build a culture that is dedicated to developing high-quality solutions that last.
17:50:38 <woodyrollins> Approachability:
17:50:38 <woodyrollins> --We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms. We strive to be accountable to each other, and to communicate with respect.
17:51:01 <kwurst> I like the "communicate with respect." I would also like to see "open: to … new contributors". This is sort of implied in some of the others, but it could be more explicit.
17:51:22 <gholms> obino: It's #agreed
17:51:30 <gregdek> kwurst: +1.
17:51:34 <obino> gholms: thanks
17:51:41 <obino> #agreed We believe in choosing the right way over the easy way. We strive to build a culture that is dedicated to developing high-quality solutions that last.
17:51:49 <noirin> kwurst: +1
17:52:48 <obino> We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms, new contributors. We strive to be accountable to each other, and to communicate with respect.
17:52:54 <obino> like that?
17:53:08 <noirin> We should probably put an "and" in that list
17:53:21 <woodyrollins> "and new contributors"
17:53:22 <kwurst> obino: Yes, that's what I was thinking.
17:53:27 <obino> We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms, and new contributors. We strive to be accountable to each other, and to communicate with respect.
17:53:38 <obino> #idea We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms, and new contributors. We strive to be accountable to each other, and to communicate with respect.
17:53:43 <noirin> Actually
17:53:54 <noirin> The striving for Approachability and Collaboration should probably be swapped
17:54:21 <obino> noirin: I agree
17:54:31 <gregdek> +1.
17:54:44 <gregdek> "We are accountable to each other, and we strive to communicate with respect."  Yes?
17:55:00 <noirin> So, Approachability becomes "We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms, and new contributors. We strive to create a community that is welcoming and inclusive of all." And Collaboration becomes "We believe in working together: sharing knowledge, co-operating, and building consensus. We strive to be accountable to each other and to communicate with respect"
17:55:25 <obino> #topic approachability
17:55:30 <noirin> gregdek: I think we strive to be accountable to each other, but perhaps you're more optimistic than I am :-)
17:55:36 <obino> #idea We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms, and new contributors. We strive to create a community that is welcoming and inclusive of all.
17:56:01 <noirin> +1
17:56:11 <obino> I think strive should stay in
17:56:50 <shaon> obino: +1
17:57:10 <obino> #agreed We believe in being open: to ideas, suggestions, criticisms, and new contributors. We strive to create a community that is welcoming and inclusive of all.
17:57:20 <obino> shaon: +1 was to break the tie :)
17:57:22 <woodyrollins> We are approaching the top of the hour?we are going to need to wrap this up
17:57:50 <gregdek> Slow progress, but strong. :)
17:57:59 <woodyrollins> We will finish up next week, starting with a discussion of the definition of Collaboration.  OK?
17:58:10 <gholms> Sounds good to me.
17:58:23 <noirin> Thanks all!
17:58:46 <woodyrollins> I want to thank everyone for showing up.  Once again, great, thoughtful meeting.
17:59:03 <woodyrollins> #endmeeting